Louis Moreno Ocampo has given his first media interview on the Kenyan trials since leaving office at the ICC. The questions were asked by followers of a facebook page called The Hague Trials Kenya(THTK)
THTK: What do most people know you for?
Ocampo: Probably because I was the chief prosecutor of the ICC. Iam well known in some countries and in legal circles. In Argentina, I was well known because I was a prosecutor against my generals
What do you do now?
Now I am a lawyer working in New York, teaching at Yale University and trying to see my kids and my family more, being with my family more
What do you feel about children in Kenya being given your name?
The fact that in Kenya and in other countries, people put my name to their sons is showing how useful the idea of the ICC was for them. My view is, as a chief prosecutor, I was basically a lawyer for the people who were victims of these massive atrocities. The fact that some of them recognized that and gave me the honor to put my name to their sons is showing that we achieved something there
How do you feel when you hear about the Kenyan cases?
I feel the Kenyan cases show the possibilities and the limits of international justice because in some way, we helped Kenyans to have peaceful elections in 2013, mostly peaceful. People were killed but not so many. And that was a big worry before
Everyone was worried in 2009, 2010, everyone was worried about the next election. In some way, we helped it to have a peaceful election. The outcome was unexpected. But it showed international justice is not just about judges and prosecutors. You need political leaders because basically what I see in Kenya is Kenyatta and Ruto were allegedly killing each other, their groups, and then they were smart. They made an alliance and they presented themselves as the reconciliation process. And Odinga who was the other candidate, said no word about the post election violence or the ICC. So, the only candidates who addressed the most important issues before Kenyans were Kenyatta and Ruto. That’s why people voted for them, besides the tribal affiliation
So, I think it’s a good example of how you can help but you can not transform Kenya in to Sweden. But we never went back to the massive violence. I hope in Kenya it’s the same. The problem is showing that the countries need a political leadership. And I hope Mr Kenyatta as a new leader elected by his peoplecan understand that and help them to move on
How efficient do you think the Waki commission was?
I think the Waki commission collected interesting evidence in the Ruto case. It was less successful in the killings committed, allegedly lead by Mr Kenyatta. It was more difficult because in the time of the Waki commission, Mr Kenyatta was part of the government, so it was probably more difficult for them to collect evidence. In our investigation when we started, we had much more evidence against Ruto than against Kenyatta. But then, at the end of the process, we had more evidence against Kenyatta than against Ruto. Then, these things are evolving because sometimes a witness changes his mind or we have problems. I don’t know. The situation is now complicated. Ms Bensouda said the witnesses are withdrawing, and this is related with the idea that people have fears
Could anything have been done to prevent witnesses from withdrawing now?
I don’t think you can do anything to prevent the problem we are having now because we protected our witnesses. We transferred them from Kenya to different places. But in some cases, we know families in Kenya were affected and threatened. When e investigate, we don’t need to disclose who are the witnesses but at trial time, and that’s the difference between the ICC and human rights groups, we disclose our witnesses. And then, the defence has the right to know them. Then after that, its much more difficult because they can go to see them in London or wherever they are. And people can threaten their families. So its part of the process
Some of our followers suggest that there was bribery of the witnesses. Did the office of the prosecutor bribe any witnesses?
The prosecutor can not bribe witnesses. He has no budget for that. The prosecutor cannot bribe witnesses. There were allegations that someone was bribing them. Yes, I had evidence of that in my time, and I suppose now that there are more problems
Did you coach witnesses?
No, people have to understand. We have very clear protocols on how to treat witnesses. They are very complex. First, its about security. So, we have a very complex protocol on how to protect before we are even in touch with them. And then in particular with those victims, those witnesses who were victims, we have a psychological assessment before we interview them to protect them. Then in interviews, there are a lot of protocols too. You have to start the interview explaining to the witnesses what is the ICC, the meaning of the ICC, then the meaning of trial. You have to ask them to tell the truth. You have to ak them to be detailed. So, there are a lot of protocol that we follow.
Why is Raila not one of the accused?
We have no information about Mr. Odinga being onvolved in the killings. He was part of the Ruto alliance, but we have information that Ruto was allegedly involved in organizing the attacks, but nothing about Odinga himself
Why isn’t Mwai Kibaki?
Same. Zero. There were zero allegations that Kibaki himself was involved. There were some people talking about his wife, but it was marginal. But zero about Kibaki.
What was the biggest challenge you encountered in the investigation?
In Kenya, the biggest challenge was to collect the evidence in a free way because the Kenyan government was really worried and there were people in the Kenyan government who were involved in the crimes. We had evidence against Francis Muthaura. The evidence was not enough to go to trial, but we had evidence against him. And muthaura was one of the most powerful people in Kenya those days. So it was very difficult to collect evidence against them. And then, when we tried to interview people, the Kenyan government was asking us for a very formal process, where we were going nowhere.
What do you say in response to a facebook follower who identifies as a victim and asks: will I get justice?
Justice is a long journey. I am Argentinean. We are pretty successful but it took seven years to have a trial against the top commanders. Then there were the rebellions. Then the trial was stopped. And almost 15 years later, the trials have started again. I did the best I could to move the cases. Fatou Bensouda is doing the same thing now. How far the ICC court will arrive? I don’t know. And probably the victims will keep asking justice for many years in Kenya. But justice is not just putting people in jail. For me, it’s a shame that there are people still displaced in Kenya. There are different types of justice and I hope that Kenyans will get justice. I know it will be a long journey
Is it harder for Ms Bensouda now that she has to deal with a president and a deputy president?
For us, we don’t care. The fact that Mr. Kenyatta is president or vice president or Mr. Bashir was president or Mr. Gadaffi was the president of Liby,we really don’t care. We don’t think in this way. We, criminal prosecutors, we look for evidence , we try to follow the evidence and we prosecute the most responsible.
Do you and Ms. Bensouda have any type of personal relationship?
I know Fatou Bensouda since 2004. She’s very smart and she also very gentle. Very very nice person. So its very difficult to fight her because she is very gentle. I am always ready to help when she needs me. The last time I was in New York, she was there, so I invited her for dinner, for instance
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